Via Phone Conference –

Betsy Rieffenberger, Salmon-Challis National Forest

Larry Thornton, Salmon-Challis National Forest

Nick Gerhardt, Nez Perce National Forest

Dave Green, Nez Perce National Forest

HUC REVIEW

The meeting began at 9:00 a.m., MST.

The first huc reviewed was 17060203 (Middle Salmon Panther) with Betsy Rieffenberger. Betsy went through the changes identified at the 8/19 meeting. It was noted that the linework did not appear to be consistent with 24k standards. Betsy stated that the linework looked fine on their end using their method of scanning. Leigh Bailey stated that they had the same problem at one time and it was determined that scanning was not the best method to use because of shifts. Betsy will check into this and look into using the DRG’s instead of scanning their data. The group talked to Larry Thornton (Salmon Challis NF) and asked him if he could show Betsy how to use the DRG’s as a background in ArcView to assist her in 24k delineation. Draft concept lines approved by group.

Betsy mentioned that the 1:24k stream layer between Moose Creek and Dump Creek needs to be checked. Sandra Thiel agreed and will update the stream layer if needed. This brought up some discussion regarding making changes to the NHD 24k stream layer to avoid confusions and duplication of efforts. It was agreed that the NHD people should be notified of this change now.

Delineation accuracy at the 24k level was brought up by Nick Gerhardt. Nick wanted clarification regarding how close to get while digitizing lines. Al Rea stated that the National Map Accuracy standard for 1:24k was approximately 12 meters or 1/50^th of an inch and that should be a guide while delineating. Al stated that the Certification and Review Team will not have enough time to check each and every line submitted by all states to make sure they are on top of ridgelines, etc., but they would implement a “spot check” system – all or nothing, so it would be a good idea to have all lines delineated at this accuracy when submitting for final certification.

The question was brought up about delineating a double banked river. Al Rea stated that when there is a single bank stream going to a double-bank river, delineate to the bank. In cases where there is a double-banked river to a double-banked river, delineate to where the center lines would meet.

Larry Thornton asked who would “own” the final Watershed product when it is complete. Al Rea stated that it hasn’t been established yet, but it will be archived in conjunction to the NHD. Linda Davis stated that Genna Ashley (IDWR) has all the edits now, and will assemble a final coverage to send for certification. Al Rea stated that it will be at least one to two years before a final repository is established. Larry Thornton stated that there are approximately 270 quads covering the Salmon-Challis National Forest and they were not going to be able to have a final watershed coverage completely finished soon. Al Rea stated that draft lines were being requested first, then an update mechanism would be in place for final revisions and certification. Linda Davis stated to Larry that all agencies are in various stages of delineations, and he is not behind in comparison.

Larry Thornton asked about edgematching efforts between states. Al Rea stated that each state needed to take care to coordinate with their neighbors to avoid confusion. Nick Gerhardt stated that it should be the responsibility of each Data Steward to coordinate their huc with neighboring states and agencies.

Betsy Rieffenberger stated that she had checked the manuscripts against the DRG’s and there was definitely a shift. She stated that she would work on this problem along with numbering and naming hucs. Larry Thornton stated that some of the DRG’s did not register very well. Al Rea stated that a very small percentage of the DRG’s had a datum confusion at one time and agreed that the accuracy issue can be tricky. He suggested checking all sources against the DRG’s while using them to avoid this problem.

Larry Thornton asked if anyone was using the Soft Copy Primary Base Series maps out of Salt Lake City. He stated that they were produced in cooperation with USGS and only produced for quads within the Forest Service boundaries. They are in TIF file format and produced differently from DRG’s. Larry stated that updates occur about every 10 years, more frequently than DRG’s, so this data is usually more accurate. He didn’t think there was a charge for the actual data, maybe a charge for writing to a CD, etc. Al Rea stated that the DRG’s are usually very accurate, but can lose accuracy depending on the downloading and clipping processes. Leigh Bailey stated that a standard needs to be identified to avoid everyone using a different set of data. Al Rea stated that the TWG should look at what Inside Idaho is serving and point everyone to their site for consistent downloads. Leigh Bailey suggested the TWG tell people to use the DRG’s and if something comes up and doesn’t look right, they should investigate. Al Rea stated that the Forest Service primarily works in UTM and the shift is greater than IDTM. Dave Green stated that there is no one place the Forest Service gets their downloads from. Leigh Bailey stated that she was going to recommend the Forest Service use the Soft Copy Primary Base Series maps as opposed to DRG’s because they have the most-recent data. Al Rea agreed that this would be good and allow for two sources to allow a cross-check of data.

The group then reviewed huc 17060207 (Middle Salmon Chamberlain). A few minor changes were identified. Betsy will make those changes and send the final draft lines to IDWR.

17060201 (Upper Salmon) – An e-mail was received from Valdon Hancock (Sawtooth NF) requesting some changes on this huc. It was decided by the group to postphone review on this huc until Valdon could be involved.

17050201 (Brownlee) – The changes made by Genna Ashley on behalf of Tim Bliss and Leigh Bailey were spot-checked. This huc was put on hold until the interim TWG meeting on September 26, pending a phone conference with Tim Bliss.

17060209 (Lower Salmon) – Nick Gerhardt went through the changes identified on this huc in the July TWG. The concept lines were approved by the group. Nick will work on cleaning up some of the 6^th field huc names; renaming them to reflect the “tributary-to-receiving water body” naming convention identified in the standards. He will send the updates to Genna Ashley to incorporate into the draft concept line Master Watershed Coverage. Draft concept lines approved by group.

17060210 (Little Salmon) – Nick Gerhardt went through the changes identified on this huc at a previous TWG meeting. There was a justification written on this huc and it has been received by the TWG. It will be kept with the huc documentation and submitted with the draft watershed coverage for certification. There was some discussion regarding changing some of the 6^th field names, and Nick will change the names to reflect the standards. There was also some discussion involving Upper Rapid River and Goose Creek East and Goose Creek West. Nick will get back to the group with his suggestions regarding these areas.

17060301 (Upper Selway) – Changes previously identified were reviewed by group. There was some linework that needed to be rechecked (the linework crossing the Little Clearwater River), and Nick will make a pure 6^th field watershed from the Middle Bear Creek 6^th field huc.

MISCELLANEOUS DISCUSSION

There was some discussion about Steve Garcia’s progress on the Utah linework. Genna Ashley stated that he had requested the zip files again because of a computer failure, and when he got things situated, he would call Genna for more information.

Irv Cowley stated that BLM may have funding for a full-time person to work on Watershed delineation. He will let the group know as this progresses.

Linda Davis stated that she has communicated with Dale Guenther regarding the Oregon/Washington linework. OR/WA has submitted a collection of both 1:24k digitized and computer-generated smoothed lines for certification. Idaho will keep in close communication with REO to find out the status of any feedback they may receive.

Al Rea stated that he will ask Kenny Legleiter for clarification regarding what is expected for a provisional certification and final certification.

Leigh Bailey stated that she had a meeting with the Boise National Forest people regarding Watershed delineation. T.J. Clifford will be working with Valdon Hancock to delineate huc 17050113, South Fork Boise in the near future.

It was decided to have an interim meeting on Thursday, September 26 to finish the following hucs: Upper Salmon, Brownlee, and Middle Salmon-Chamberlain.

ACTION ITEMS:

Sandra Thiel will check the the 1:24k stream layer between Moose Creek and Dump Creek. She will notify the NHD if changes are made.

Betsy Rieffenberger will review her 24k linework against the DRG’s and check for any discrepancies.

Leigh Bailey will recommend to the Forest Service Regions that they use the Soft Copy Primary Base Series maps to do the 24k linework on their delineations.

Betsy Rieffenberger will make some minor changes on huc 17060207 (Middle Salmon Chamberlain). Genna Ashley will followup for these changes and incorporate them into the draft watershed coverage.

Hucs 17060201 (Upper Salmon), 17050201 (Brownlee), and 17060207 (Middle Salmon Chamberlain) will be reviewed on September 26 at an interim TWG Meeting.

17060209 (Lower Salmon) – Nick Gerhardt will work on cleaning up some of the 6^th field huc names, renaming them to relect the “tributary-to-receiving water body” naming convention identified in the standards. He will send the changes to Genna Ashley for incorporation into the draft watershed coverage.

17060210 (Little Salmon) – Nick Gerhardt will change some of the 6^th field names to reflect the standards. There was also some discussion involving Upper Rapid River and Goose Creek East and Goose Creek West. Nick will get back to the group with his suggestions regarding these areas.

17060301 (Upper Selway) – Nick Gerhardt will recheck the linework crossing the Little Clearwater River. He will also delineate another pure 6^th field watershed from the Middle Bear Creek 6^th field huc.

Erv Cowley will keep the group posted on the status of hiring a full-time watershed person for the BLM.

The Idaho TWG will monitor the outcome of watershed certification information from Oregon/Washington REO office.

NEXT SCHEDULED TWG MEETING(S):

October 11^th at 9:00 a.m. MST – The TWG will review any changes left over from the September 20^th meeting and begin a review with Ed Lozar on various Clearwater National Forest hucs to be determined.

(Tentative) November 7^th at 10:00 a.m. MST – The TWG will review any changes left over from the October 11^th meeting, to be determined. Betsy Rieffenberger plans to have the Upper and Lower Middle Fork hucs ready for a first-time review and a final review will be done on the Lemhi. A first time review may also begin on the South Fork Boise huc, tentatively.

The meeting concluded at approximately 2:00 p.m.